tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post8905059769125811347..comments2023-03-26T17:32:37.753-04:00Comments on On This And On That - על דא ועל הא: What did Avraham Avinu wear?Y. http://www.blogger.com/profile/00852218508652846269noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-504762271221447052011-12-25T16:51:45.922-05:002011-12-25T16:51:45.922-05:00To this day, in the seventeenth century building o...To this day, in the seventeenth century building of the magnificent Spanish-Portugese Synagogue of Amsterdam, there is a side room exclusively for individual lockers containing each member's equivalent of a shtreimel: a black bowler hat (just like the one depicted in the famous Magritte painting).<br />To estimate how Avraham would appear to say Yehudah ben Yaakov Avinu, one would have to seek Chaldean or pre-Hittite sculptural reliefs or early Egyptian images of their conquered Mesopotamean foes.Avos Grantanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-7565579637125906702011-12-23T10:07:10.947-05:002011-12-23T10:07:10.947-05:00there is a story (chanukkah connection) that the b...there is a story (chanukkah connection) that the berditchever's chassidim commissioned a menorah, with each lamp representing avot / ushpizin / appropriate forefathers. the silversmith asked r levi yitzchak how should i dress avraham avinu? with a shtreimel and kapote, of course? but we know he didnt wear one? when mashiach comes, he will wear one.<br /><br />as you mention, sfardim, others disagree.<br /><br />dont tell this story to lubavitchers -- they will start making menorot of the rebbe z"l, only. with a regular hat.MiMedinat HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-40190645698323808882011-12-20T18:44:03.703-05:002011-12-20T18:44:03.703-05:00I didnt say he wore a shtreimel, I said he wore a ...I didnt say he wore a shtreimel, I said he wore a fur, shtreimel or spodik like hat. It's a reasonable analogy; and if you think it isn't, fair enough. <br /><br />As for the romantic notion that the top hat was the shtreimel of Frankfurt, that would work better if the top hat wasn't also *the* formal dress hat in Europe at the time. Maybe it was the shtreimel in the late 1960s when it was already passe, but certainly not in the 1920s or earlier.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-24391163861306517712011-12-20T12:59:04.407-05:002011-12-20T12:59:04.407-05:00When the Arugas haboshem Rav Moshe Grunwald went ...When the Arugas haboshem Rav Moshe Grunwald went to see the Belzer rav for the 1st time in Galicia he wore a Top hat(cylinder hat , high hat) which was the standard hat for Pressburger yeshiva bachurim in the mid and late 19th century. <br />I suspect baalebatim in Oberland wore this too on Shabbes.<br />The Rabbonim may have worn some form of modified shtreimel or the wide brimmed hat special to Hungarian Ashkenazic rabbonim. the Debreciner rav ZT"l wore that hat.<br />In the various portraits of the Chasam Sofer and the Ktav Sofer we have (the ones of the Chasam Sofer are by his shamash Reb Ber Fraenk) we do NOT see him wearing a shtreimel.He is wearing a fur hat but it is not a shtreimel.<br />Finally the late rav Shimon Schwab wrote that for Franfurt (and I suppose orthodox Jews througout germany) the top hat was their shtreimel, because to them it had the same significance. There are photos of Frankfurt Yidden walking to shul in their top hats.Among 20th century rabbonim we have photos wearing top hats are Rav Silver, rav konwitz of Newark, the rashag son in law of the Rayaatz of lubavitch, reb Moshe Mordechai of Slobodka, the Dvar Avrohom of Kovna and the ramaz of NYC among others.<br />So the top hat was hardly a modern fashion statement.<br />If we are a people of logic , then our patriarchs probably dressed like the Baba Sali with a hooded gilbayah to keep out the sun and winds and a ling robe with sandals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-66362627864701464832011-12-19T15:53:37.210-05:002011-12-19T15:53:37.210-05:00That's pretty funny. Actually, the Chasam Sofe...That's pretty funny. Actually, the Chasam Sofer himself wore a fur, shtreimel (or spodik)-like hat, which had been popular with rabbis in the 18th century. I guess by "kneitch" he meant "non-Chassidic hat" unless he meant it literally. If so, then no, neither the Chasam Sofer nor anyone else in Pressburg wore a hat which can best be described as having not yet existed.<br /><br />What I meant by #3 is that rather than him meaning Tricorne hats like R. Daniel Prossnitz, or Shtreimel-like hats like the Chasam Sofer (which would defeat the whole purpose of what he said) he probably had in mind whatever hats the "yereim" in Pressburg were wearing in his *own* time, in his youth. I didn't opine what sort of hats those were, but in all likelihood they are the close ancestors of bieber hats and the like.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-89816209116475645772011-12-19T15:39:22.307-05:002011-12-19T15:39:22.307-05:00thanks. In another version, R. Yankele of Pshevors...thanks. In another version, R. Yankele of Pshevorsk said he would've seen him in a "Kneitch". As far as I know, the Chasam Sofer didn't wear a kneitch. (Is this what you meant with 3?)Y. https://www.blogger.com/profile/00852218508652846269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5206265597250436454.post-71904075274526229692011-12-19T12:40:49.406-05:002011-12-19T12:40:49.406-05:00That's really interesting.
As for what he is...That's really interesting. <br /><br />As for what he is referring to, there are several possibilities:<br /><br />1) Nothing. It's just an expression, but the point is, not a shtreimel.<br />2) He literally meant the hats which the traditional Jews in Pressburg wore. I've seen depictions of R. Daniel Prossnitz, who was on the Chasam Sofer's Beis Din, and he wore a Tricorne hat (think: George Washington). By contrast, the moderners wore a "zylinder", something like a top hat. See <a href="http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2010/04/montesquieu-mendelssohn-three-cornered.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>, where I quote someone as remembering that in Prague in the first decades of the 19th century, the "modern" students wore cylinder hats, while the more traditional ones wore tricorne hats.<br />3) He literally meant the hats which the traditional Jews in Pressburg wore in his own time, that is, decades after the Chasam Sofer died. <br /><br />All in all, a pretty perceptive comment.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com